DCP says Gretsch contradicts M/G/M/G/G/M

Discussion in 'General' started by DrummerJustLikeDad, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Grooovepig

    Grooovepig Very well Known Member

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    These guys are pretty full of themselves aren't they? I can't stand it when anyone gets up on a soap box and espouses their beliefs as if they are gospel. Yeah, I couldnt tell the diffence between any of those drums -- not because of their composition or layup -- but due to the sh!t sound of their video. I mean they are not wrong to an extent. But I can certainly hear the difference between a Recording Custom and a Gretsch USA drum. Thanks.....
     
  2. Tornado

    Tornado Very well Known Member

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    I think a complete drum is greater than the sum of its parts. There are a lot of things that go into making a RC sound like a RC, or a Gretsch sound like a Gretsch. Just one of those things alone doesn't do much (I don't think anyone can really hear a difference between Asian and North American maple in most drums), but enough of those little things in the right combination, you get something great.
     
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  3. jbonzo1

    jbonzo1 DFO Master

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    How much do the 3 ply shell.jpg inner plies contribute to the sound?
    Look at this Ludwig three ply shell... That's a thick poplar ply with thin mahogany inner and outers.
     
  4. dogmanaut

    dogmanaut Very well Known Member

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    That Ludwig is making me want an ice cream sandwich, for some reason...
     
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  5. DrummerJustLikeDad

    DrummerJustLikeDad That's Me, The Silent Son

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    I agree that it's a sum of parts, whose individual contributions are pretty unsearchable.

    Lightning in a bottle is a pretty unstable thing, so when you've been lucky enough to find it, I assert that one ought not try to play at guessing which are the essential parts and which are expendable. It's beyond science at this point, it's magic. One should simply enjoy his good fortune at having found it in the first place and hopefully learn to leave well enough alone. :)

    As a fan of Gretsch and the sounds of those who played them, who am I to say that sound comes from fairy dust in the interior paint, hoops forged in ancient fires, or a middle layer of maple that binds it altogether?

    I won't notice a difference, indeed I hadn't, if this has gone on a while. But it's baffling to consider the cheek someone could have to mess with the key to his own rare success, and I'll add it's more than a little heartbreaking to think the shell of legends passed away quietly with nary a sendoff.
     
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  6. BBeyer

    BBeyer DFO Master

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    Pearl has a maple/gumwood shell now, That I saw on a video form this years NAMM. Does anyone have any opinions on them?

    The statement earlier about Jasper making oversized shells, and not upgrading when the plastic heads came out is probably why my Corder (jasper shell) snare drum is a pain in the ass to fit counterhoops on
     
  7. foxy_shazamtastic

    foxy_shazamtastic Member

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    Here’s the bearing edge of my round badge bass drum. I don’t know guys, if we’re going by that ply thickness thing, this might be a m/g/g/g/g/m shell. The color and texture makes me think maple for that inner ply. But it’s the same thickness as the gum plies around it, which on a bass or snare should be 1/16”. The maple plies should remain 1/32” correct? So shouldn’t that inner maple ply appear thinner than the gum around it? Perhaps the difference in color and texture/apparent softness is more due to a different grain orientation than a different species of wood.
     

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  8. foxy_shazamtastic

    foxy_shazamtastic Member

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    And going by this logic, we could make a guess as to what the grain orientation layup of the shell is too. And basically decode the entire gretsch shell formula. It looks like h/v/h/v/v/h.
     
  9. foxy_shazamtastic

    foxy_shazamtastic Member

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    Woah, but unless I’m crazy the rack tom looks like h/v/h/v/h/v
     
  10. foxy_shazamtastic

    foxy_shazamtastic Member

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    Ok here are the pictures of the toms, rack first floor second. The grain direction appears to differ between these shells. Maybe they were always changing it, or have a specific formula for each drum
     

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  11. "poppies"

    "poppies" DFO Veteran

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    Whatever the fallout from all this, Gretsch should really appreciate that their brand inspires such passionate focus on minutiae!
     
  12. JDA

    JDA DFO Master

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    Bass drum ply thickness were thicker than toms. That pic looks like a straight ahead m/g/m/g/g/m
    Read this has only one error in it (i can tell)
    https://webcache.googleusercontent....d-centennial-shells+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


    read that link; has the horizontal/vertical/ info/in it/
     
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  13. skelt101

    skelt101 Well-Known Member

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    Conversely...

    Not saying I subscribe to either school of thought...
     
  14. jptrickster

    jptrickster DFO Master

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    The acid test , do the tapping once all the hardware is installed.

    Garrison will you pass me the Grey Poupon
     
  15. LFBarfe

    LFBarfe Very well Known Member

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    My Gretsch kit consists of orphan drums (10/12/13/14 MTs, 14/16 FTS, 20 BD) from the early 1970s to 2006 which I rewrapped. Some have the 30 degree edges. Some barely have any edges at all. The shell layup could vary from one drum to the next. I've drilled and filled holes as necessary. You know what? They all sound like Gretsch.
     
  16. b/o 402

    b/o 402 Wacky old coot

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    There seems to be some confusion about modern ply shell construction. Watch this video which shows how it is done. First, two veneers are cross laminated (for split resistance while handling) to form 2-ply sheets. Three of these 2-ply sheets are successively inserted into the mold to make a 6-ply shell. The inner sheet is typically reversed to put the higher quality veneer on the inside of the shell. This explains the MGMGGM or MPMPPM ply order.

     
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  17. BBeyer

    BBeyer DFO Master

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    The inner two plies being reversed to leave the nicer wood on the inside makes so much sense. I don’t know why I never considered that would be why the layup was mgmggm!
    I had to go downstairs and inspect my jasper shells to see what the deal was.
    So are all of the gum plies configured in the same direction? And all the maple plies are also all facing the same way?
    Speaking of that, when we say “horizontal” in reference to drum shells, are we speaking of the shell sitting on a bench, laying on the bearing edges? Like is the visible outer ply horizontal, or vertical?
     

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  18. b/o 402

    b/o 402 Wacky old coot

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    I think that's probably right. So the orientation of each ply in the shell comes out HVHVVH.
    Ludwig used to have a similar video showing their 9-ply process. For that, 3 veneers are cross laminated to make a single sheet, then 3 sheets together made a shell. So the ply orientation comes out HVHHVHHVH.
    Remember that 60 years ago veneers were cut thicker. Modern veneers are often 1mm or less, so particularly weak woods like gum or poplar need to be cross laminated before bending.
     
  19. Bri6366

    Bri6366 Very well Known Member

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    I wonder how much Drum Workshop influenced the decision to go with MGGGGM. I.e., they can use less maple and it won't make any difference in the sound. I'm sure the Wood Whisperer could make a convincing argument, especially if they were using the old ply layup and oversized shell because "that's what we've always done." The guys at DW could have said "that's stupid, it doesn't make any sense and here is the proof." I'm only speculating, but I follow the logic and with DW making the shells that's probably how it went down.
     
  20. Tornado

    Tornado Very well Known Member

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    Imagine this statement ever happening at DW. The home of timbre matched shells.
     
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