Ideal Paiste Masters Swish Weight?

Discussion in 'Cymbal Talk' started by CSR, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. CSR

    CSR Member since May 2000

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    So I have a new Paiste Masters Swish 20” that was pretty expensive. After reading all the reviews, seeing the videos of this model online, and hearing from DFO members about how sweet this cymbal would be, I pulled the trigger.

    It weighs in at 1960 grams, which seems 8 to 4O grams heavier than most of the ones I see online for sale.

    To me, so far, in my practice room, it sounds a little harsh and a bit clangy to me. I took it on one big band gig, and it seemed merely ok.

    Is this too heavy for a Masters Swish to get that “best I’ve ever heard” vibe, like Peter Erskine talks about? Could it be my aging ears, although hearing aids are doing their job?

    Any comments or suggestions? They would be greatly appreciated. At this point, I’m feeling disappointed.
     
  2. rculberson

    rculberson Very well Known Member

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    I don’t think 8-40 extra grams on a cymbal that size would be noticeable sonically. 200-400 grams difference, yeah.
     
    zenstat likes this.
  3. Stuffed Chimp

    Stuffed Chimp Member

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    I agree with the above - I doubt 40g on a 20" cymbal would be noticeable.

    I'm sorry the swish isn't as beautiful as you hoped. I think we've all been there when chasing a sound: spending the cash following exhaustive research, only to find its not 'quite' right. Its a pretty disappointing/disheartening experience, particularly when we find ourselves considerably out of pocket.

    If it helps at all I often find that the cymbals I purchase on a punt because they look interesting or are selling at an easy enough price point are sometimes exactly the sound I want, even if its not the sound I was particularly searching for, once I get my sticks on it.
     
  4. beatsmith8

    beatsmith8 Well-Known Member

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    I had the 22 and I now regret selling it. Amazing.
     
  5. zenstat

    zenstat Senior Cymbal Nerd

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    Yes to this based on my research work.

    Yes although it is the weight more than the diameter which sets the expected variation in weight when it comes to allowed variation with a model and diameter. I consider a 40g of weight difference in a 800g cymbal is a lot and 40g of weight difference in a 2800g cymbal is a little...independent of whether the diameter is 18", 20" or 22".

    The Masters Swish only comes in 22" not 20", and the 1960g does fit in with the 22" offering weights. So I'll presume that was just a diameter typo in the OP. A 20" Masters Swish (if it existed) would be expected to be in the 1500g - 1600g range based on a quick review of other weights for a 20" Paiste Swish from the Traditional series. A 40g difference in a 1960g cymbal is at the expected level (see below).

    See this post and the following discussion for a bit more on how much variation you can expect in weights for a given model at a given diameter.

    https://www.drumforum.org/threads/p...al-praise-and-such.122562/page-3#post-1762349

    I'm now at the point with both Zildjian and Paiste where I have good enough estimates of model specific weight distributions to be able to spot weighing mistakes (or diameter mistakes), but as always allowing for the very occasional oddity. I still say "never say never".

    There is a recent discussion about a Sabian clone of the 18" Fo602 Flatride used by Roy Haynes on the Chic Corea album "Now He Sings Now He Sobs" over on Cymbalholic. It was started by Andy Kim but since you have to be a member to see it, here is my potted summary (and the links) just because it gives another glimpse of the level of model detail available now.



    The story in text and podcast, and a picture of the original...

    http://jazzonline.com/podcasts/jazz-backstage-roy-haynes-chick-corea.html

    [​IMG]

    Sabian's Mark Love shows the process (pats 2 and 3 -- we can't find part 1)





    Nice to see the preliminary hydraulic pressing machine in action, and then the human guided hammering machine. I'm a bit puzzled about that because AA (Automatic Anvil) was supposed to be self advancing the way I've heard it told before. If all the AA are really human guided by eye as we see there that changes things in terms of the technology Sabian are using.

    The weight is interesting new info. We haven't ever been sure whether it was a THIN FLATRIDE or a MEDIUM FLATRIDE model because we didn't have a weight. That's presuming it isn't a Seven Sound Set #4 of course. Those also came in THIN and medium designations.

    3.30 lbs is 1497g (original)
    3.36 lbs is 1524g (clone)

    unless the scale flashed 3.26 not 3.36, and presuming the output is decimal pounds (3.30) rather than pounds ounces (3 lbs 3.0 ounces). If it is 3 lbs 3 oz than that's 1446g so a bit lighter. Note for our discussion here that Mark Love says "the weights are exactly the same".

    So a difference of 28g for a 1500g cymbal is "exactly the same" as far as cymbal makers go. That is about 2% variation counting as "same weight". In the case of the 1960g 22" Swish cymbal 40g would be...the same 2% variation. If it really was a 20" Masters Swish as reported in the OP, it would be much heavier than expected for that diameter and a true statistical outlier. I'll wait to hear about that.

    The weight for the 18" cloned Flatride and the original puts both cymbals into the THIN camp based on the 60 Fo602 18" flat ride cymbals I've got with model ink intact. The accuracy of that classification is about 93%.

    [statistical details on]
    There is a bit of overlap in the weight distributions, but a cut point at about 1600g is a good predictor of which cymbals will have MEDIUM or THIN ink. That cutoff misclassifies 4 out of the 60, aka 93% correct. The misclassified ones are two which have MEDIUM ink and weigh 1523g and 1525g, and two SSS#4 which weight 1450g and 1530g but do not say THIN. The 1450g one is a statistical outlier and it might be I miscoded it back in 2010 by failing to note the THIN in my records. If you move the cutpoint a bit lower to stop misclassifying the three heaviest of those (1520g-1525g) you don't gain anything in prediction accuracy because you start misclassifying the heaviest of the cymbals with THIN ink as medium (1530g-1590g).
    [statistical details off]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  6. CSR

    CSR Member since May 2000

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    Wow! Great detail! The original posting was a typo...the Paiste Masters Swish is indeed 22”. Many thanks for your detailed reply...I have to spend some time digesting it now.
     
  7. Markkuliini

    Markkuliini DFO Veteran

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    About the flat ride weight: I think we only see part of the process on the video. If they were aiming for doing an exact clone and had a scale next to the lathing machine, then I'm pretty sure that the continued to lathe it after the weighting we saw. Then there is a cut on the video, and the guy announces that the weight is exactly the same.
    My point is that this was not a live documentation and why go all that trouble of weighting during lathing, if they are not going to match it more closely.
    To me this is more likely scenario, than leaving it that much heavier .
     
  8. JDA

    JDA DFO Master

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    With Paiste within a model there's no " Best I ever Heard". They're All equal. Each model Consistent within. Right? RIGHT?
    If , of a particular model, you don't like one ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019

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