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Discussion in 'Cymbal Talk' started by gaebrel, Feb 16, 2019.
Does anyone here know what the secret Signature formula is?
Yes...... But it's a secret.
Ketchup and Thousand Island. Don't tell anyone.
Ancient Druid Magic.
It is the opposite of secret. It is patented, and the filing of a patent requires the details to be revealed. It is a phosphor bronze with around 15% tin. Go to the US Government site and you can read the patent for yourself. Unfortunately I can't give you a direct link to it because of the way the system was designed.
I go here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
and type the patent number into field 1. Then choose the last entry which comes up.
PSA (Paiste Sound Alloy) patent 4809581 granted: March 7, 1989 filed: July 13, 1988 and covers B13-B18 which shuts out competitors (not naming anybody in particular ) from making an alloy anywhere in that range unless they pay royalties. Paiste do focus in on a narrow range as optimal
"said tin content is in the range of 14.7 to 15.8 percent by weight."
which is narrowed to "14.7 to 15.1" later in the commentary.
Paiste give the phosphorus content as
"phosphorus in a content of less than 0.1 percent by weight."
Note that PSA is now out of patent and Zildjian came out with an experimental B15 line called Project 391 in late 2014 or early 2015.
If you go and read the patent it also has lots of details on how the alloy is produced and cymbals are created. All part of what is needed to get a process patented.
It's certainly nothing so special and superior that it needs to be a big secret. It's not like the coca cola recipe or anything like that. As Zen said it's a roughly B15 bronze alloy with added phosphorus. Mainly a marketing gimmick from Paiste convincing people that it's something divine when they lost their B20 capacity. It's a good alloy nonetheless.
The formula itself isn't as important as the process afterwards. In many cases, their lower-mid and mid-range cymbals wipe the floor with the competition. The new 602 Moderns are some of the best cymbals I've ever heard, and Paiste Chinas are the best in the business. I will not buy another brand. Not to mention, everything they make sits like magic in a mix and records brilliantly. And then there's the matter of consistency. If your favorite crash breaks in Prague, you can walk in to the local music store, buy the same model, and be within 2 to 5% overall tonality difference sound-wise. Try that with your A's, K's, AA's, or HH's. Ain't happening.
They had published the basics (B12, B20, that kinda thing) of the formula in their marketing in the past. I remember the breakdown on that quite a few years ago. I looked in my records yesterday and couldn't put my finger on it. Figures.
Though I've never been "all in" for a single manufacturer ... I went for a period as a Zildjian guy ... then a Paiste guy ... then a Sabian guy ... then a Meinl guy ... for the past umpteen years, I'm a whatever sounds right guy.
But ... I gotta tell you ... I'm once again intrigued with Paiste. I've got some of these cymbals that continue to blow my mind.
I may do another full set before the year is completed.
Why did Paiste lose their B20 capacity back in the late 80s/early 90s?
With their more recent use of B20, did they simply find another foundry for the Formula 602s? Are the Masters still coming from Turkey (as the original Twenty series models purportedly were) and having cold working completed in Switzerland?
YES! YES!! YES!!!
This feels like Groundhog Day.
The SwissMetal AG company which produced the 602 material stopped producing it and later closed down completely. Some years later the 602 material was reformulated in Germany and it continues to be produced there.
The Masters blanks come from Turkey but from a different supplier than the early Paiste Twenty cymbals. There are two camps in terms of how much work was done in Switzerland vs Turkey.
for my summary of evidence. I've walked away from any further discussion because it seems unproductive to me. I'm back on other research topics. Note that for a month or two since the last forum software "upgrade" my username changed to steveblack but as of yesterday it was changed back to zenstat. Same person, but you may find occasional references to steveblack because the name change isn't properly global.
Is the consistency of Paiste true of their Masters series? In particular, I’m interested in the Masters Swish.
Thank you for the detail. I had not seen the original thread, ergo the question.
I would say yes.
I don't know how that formula makes them sound so musical. But can you tell I love them?