Rogers script badges

Discussion in 'Vintage Venue' started by jptrickster, Nov 5, 2010.

  1. jptrickster

    jptrickster DFO Master

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    I picked up a 59-60 pirate script badge thinking it would fit a bass drum that was missing such badge only to find out that it was a smaller version that was used on toms.....
    I had no idea there were 2 sizes....
    that is all.....carry on
    [​IMG]
     
  2. DanC

    DanC "Get in, sit down, shut up, hold on"

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    Where on earth did you find those badges?

    That style badge was only used for a short while, less than a year I think, and yet they had the time to cook up 2 sizes. And apparently they soon realized they didn't like the look and needed something more contemporary, so the timeless script badge we all know and love came into being.

    I've often wondered about the possible prototypes of experimentation that were gone through. I assume the design was developed by an outside firm; they would be pleased to see how iconic their work has become.
     
  3. tommykat1

    tommykat1 DFO Master

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    Some of the catalogs show that big logo in place, if I remember correctly. I think it's a pretty cool design.
     
  4. jptrickster

    jptrickster DFO Master

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    The large is on my black playboy kit 12 20 14 ...the bass is the only drum with the pirate badge although the numbers are fairly close looks like 1960
    bass= 12500
    12 tom= 17682
    14 tom= 17719
    [​IMG]


    The smaller one was on ebay a couple months ago....grabbed it for a project bass missing the badge (tag # 12598)
     
  5. Rogersoholic

    Rogersoholic DFO Master

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    There is a period where multiple types of badges were offered. The bass you have I date as 1958. These were used and then they went back to the Eagle badge. My records show @ 122xx had an Eagle badge, then they used the pirate badge {yours @ 125xx}, then returned to the Eagle badge around 147xx. Thats as close as I have tracked. You drums 177xx show the first use of the reg script badge. In between 147xx and 172xx there was a 3rd pirate type I usually date these as 59 because the catalog has the badge shown on the cover. As to the size, in the early 60's as to the use of the reg script logo, there was even a very large reg script used as well. These oversized badges I found are the rarest of all badges. Some photos in the catalogs show them on the drums. I always took these as being used for endorsers drums. This may be true in this case with the badge you have on your drum. I knew this to be true of reg script, but not pirate type. Its a rarity for sure. It could also be the norm, but I dont see that many bass drums with that badge to compare it to.. That 14" is rare bird too. It should have square assembly nuts, wide rerings, on a Jasper shell. Its one of the first 14" floor toms made by Rogers. Yours is the earliest known to date. Never saw an Eagle badge 14" floor.
     
  6. johnny

    johnny Guest

    That kit is awecomw JP!! Man :occasion5:
     
  7. jptrickster

    jptrickster DFO Master

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    Thanks Johhny and RogersO :occasion5:

    Toms are definetly 3 ply's w 2ply rings....flatish edges. The sta tite mount screws and nuts were changed along time ago when I got this kit(it was pretty rough!)....I still have the original rusted up square ones.I wasn't very particular back in the day in keeping everything totally original. Fortunately that has evolved, nowadays I don't even take lugs off as to not disturb and preserve the original powdery white oxidization on the screw heads!
    I was thinking Granpacleve must have one of these old 14 3ply's ......the purple kit maybe?
    The badge info and timeline are very interesting...
    What are the numbers on your cocktail drums Tommykat(if your out there?) I'm pretty sure Those a have the pirate badges(time to backtrack and find the pics)

    Bring on the Badges! :occasion5:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Rogersoholic

    Rogersoholic DFO Master

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    Grandpa's PDP is a 16 {super rare}. I also have a 14 floor same era, your numbers are just a bit lower.
     
  9. vintagemore2000

    vintagemore2000 DFO Master

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    I learn something new all the time I love it!!
     
  10. BrianOwens

    BrianOwens Drumsforever

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    Beautiful drums inside and out! Always liked that early script badge! Thanks for the info! :occasion5:
     
  11. jptrickster

    jptrickster DFO Master

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    Seems something old is something new with Rogers...a company in constant motion for sure....
    speaking of large logo's check out the floor tom, holy cow!
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Blkonyx

    Blkonyx DFO Veteran

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    The two first script logo designs were made in two sizes. Usually the larger ones were placed on floor toms and bass drums. Then the smaller ones were placed on snare drums and rack toms. Those super oversized logos (like in the picture above) could have been made for trade show models or endorsers so it could stand out from a distance, but never seen any drum with this super big logo, ever. I think it's clear to say that when the catalogs were printed, the editors made the logos bigger. If you think about it, the rogers logo would be hard to find in a black and white photo. They had to do something to make it stand out.
     
  13. GrandpaCleve

    GrandpaCleve DFO Veteran

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    yes give the man a flutophone. Rogeroholic is correct that the purple floor is a 16". Very special purple 5pc with numbers in a row tags. I have a regular script 14x14 Holiday 33,5XX floor tom in sparkling red b+b. The 2 "odd" early scripts both had the same floor tom/bass drum size -vs- the snare drum/tom tom size. Joe liked to work and experiment every day. I'd bet that during this new era world of Swivomatic his mind was a racing and metal was a flyin in the lab!

    Peace, Gary
     
  14. HotpotDavid

    HotpotDavid Well-Known Member

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    I have two sizes of the script badges on my 59 Rogers set. The ones on the 16" FT & bass are 3" long and the one on the small tom is 2 1/2" long. My serial numbers are all 144XX. I've also heard these referred to as early English badges.

    View attachment 83538 View attachment 83539
     
  15. Nutbox

    Nutbox Well-Known Member

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    I think calling it "English" is a bit backwards. Ajax used the "Pirate" type logo around in the US in 59/60 and added an underscore (possibly just to strengthen the casting of the logo).

    [​IMG]

    Two types: early long underscore and 66/67 shorter underscore
     
  16. DanC

    DanC "Get in, sit down, shut up, hold on"

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    Great info about all these badges.

    However, using the serial numbers in a drum as strict evidence of a timeline is problematic. While the numbers are generally sequential from one year to the next, there are a lot of stops and starts and seemingly out-of-sequence drums/badges/hardware etc. It is better to date a drum using the serial number and the parts on it. The tags were in boxes around the plant and they were grabbed seemingly at random sometimes. Even kits that definitely came together often have serials that are thousands of numbers apart.

    There are transitions where new/old parts are mixed on a drum, and this is to be expected. However, suggesting that an older version of part was used, and then a new version for a while, and then back to the older part based on a strict ordering of serials, can get us into trouble. The serials were often jumbled up, but the timeline of parts much less so.

    I have the utmost respect for the other Rogers nuts around here, and often have wished for there to be a way to date a drum to a year, month and day. It would make this a somewhat easier study and present a more consistent backward view. But such an exact methodology is really not available.

    They were just building drums, not collectibles, and they needed to put a serial tag in each drum and really weren't concerned with which one, to the point where they would grab a 'Luxor' tag, cross it out, and write 'Holiday' in there instead, for example. Or they grabbed a blank tag (these had their own number sequence like any of the other models) and typed in the model name they needed. I've got plenty of speckled Dayton or later Luxor snares, and they all have Cleveland tags in them: a glaring example of tags being used out of sequence, from leftovers, odd boxes, etc.

    I've had eBay buyers/sellers insisting to me that the serials were added to the tag just before it was put in the drum, and if the number on a crossed-out tag didn't fit in between the other numbers then that drum must have been an add-on, a substitute, or whatever. A totally wrong belief....

    It is obvious to all of us that the tags came in boxes from the printer with the numbers printed on them in sequence, just like the checks you get from your bank. But they were not usually used in the order they were in the box, and each box in a batch could have easily wound up on a different bench and had it's contents used in a different week or month than the other boxes in that batch. How often do we see the tags in a kit come numerically one after another on all 4 drums? The one that Gary has is one of only a couple I have ever heard about, and that kit is obviously a special build in that color.

    Ok, I'm off to eBay looking for buried treasure....... ;)





    .
     
  17. DanC

    DanC "Get in, sit down, shut up, hold on"

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    This is exactly right, in my opinion. The photos in the pre-67 catalogs were done using a 'stylized' technique, and can be hard to decipher and don't represent reality in a lot of cases. Small details are blurred, or modified, or left out. And things were changed for advertising purposes, those large logos being a perfect example.
     
  18. tommykat1

    tommykat1 DFO Master

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    JP, here you go re the serials on my 1958 Spotlight cocktail outfit.

    Snare S/N: 8962
    FT S/N: 12529

    Why we think these are from 1958: It has been determined that the Swivo series first appeared in late 1957 or early 1958. The Swivo mounting plates on the early drums had two screw holes, presumably for a very, very short time. because very few ever turn up. When they added the 3rd and 4th hole, there was still another anomaly: they didn't yet stamp the "Rogers" name on the Swivo plates. So, we can guess that in late 1958, or 59, the company stamped the Swivos with Rogers and used the pirate logo before going to the modern, pervasive, script logo.. Meanwhile, they were also using up the Eagle badges whenever they could.

    The Spotlight was the top of the line snare before the introduction of the Holiday (and later Powertone, then Dyna) snares.

    So:

    >> Floor tom Eagle badge
    >> Snare Pirate badge
    >> Large B&B lugs on the snare
    >> Four hole Swivo plates with no "Rogers" stamp

    = 1958 transition model cocktail outfit.


    [​IMG]
     
  19. tommykat1

    tommykat1 DFO Master

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    Nutbox, FYI, these are not the Pirate badges! This is the THIRD type of script badge, which the English chose to keep! Both are rare, though according to the Rogers book, the Pirate badge wasn't around as long.
     
  20. jptrickster

    jptrickster DFO Master

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    That's great info Tommy, thanks! What a georgous cocktail kit :notworthy:
    It sounds like RogersO is correct that my bass, 12500 is closer to a 1958 than a 59-60. Could of just as easily had an Eagle badge on it.
    One thing for sure....there was alot going on at Rogers in the late 50's :occasion5:
     

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