12/8

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Houndog said:
How are they 1/8 th notes when there are 12 of them. ??
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Again, 8th of a whole note, not an 8th of whatever the time signature is.

paul said:
No. You would count 1-4-7-10.
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One might, I wouldn’t. I don’t think there’s a great reason to count beats that way except out of deference to, a guy put a 12 there. I just count them naturally in numerical order, just like 4/4, with a different subdivision.
 
In the REAL world, in a REAL band you would NEVER count off a 12/8 song (slow blues, old soul... see below) as:

1 . . 4 . . 7 . . 10 . .

The other band members would think you were drunk, stupid or stoned.

You count 1 . .2 . . 3 . . 4 . . OF COURSE. Because 12/8 is FOUR BEATS PER MEASURE!

Sheesh....


 
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Matched Gripper said:
12/8 is twelve 8th note triplets in 4 groups of 3. Similarly, 6/8 (a common marching cadence), is six 8th note triplets in two groups of 3.
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No, they are not 8th notes triplets. They are 8th notes.
If you play 8th notes triplets in 12/8, you actually end up playing 18 notes per bar.
But if you want to notate 12/8 FEEL in 4/4 time signature, then you use 8th notes triplets.

Trust me on this one. :)
 
Markkuliini said:
No, they are not 8th notes triplets. They are 8th notes.
If you play 8th notes triplets in 12/8, you actually end up playing 18 notes per bar.
But if you want to notate 12/8 FEEL in 4/4 time signature, then you use 8th notes triplets.

Trust me on this one. :)
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There are two eighth notes per quarter note. There are eight 8th notes to a measure of 4/4. There are three 8th note triplets per quarter note. There are twelve 8th note triplets to a measure of 4/4.
 
Matched Gripper said:
There are two eighth notes per quarter note. There are eight 8th notes to a measure of 4/4. There are three 8th note triplets per quarter note. There are twelve 8th note triplets to a measure of 4/4.
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Good, yes, that is all correct.

What you wrote on your earlier post about 12/8 having twelve 8th note triplets was not.
 
BUT (to further muddy the waters):

In 12/8 we do not refer to the group of three eighth notes that make up one beat as a "triplet": those three eighth notes are the standard division of the beat in 12/8 time (four beats to the measure, 12 eighth notes)... similar to TWO eighth notes being the standard division of the beat in 4/4 time (four beats to the measure, 8 eighth notes )

A triplet (technically) is a non-standard division into three... if we are in 4/4 and start dividing each beat into three (as discussed above) we now have 1 trip let 2 trip let etc. We have done a "non-standard" beat division into three notes.

SO... Yes, 12/8 (12 eighth notes) and 4/4 (written with 12 eighth notes: four groups of eight-note triplets) will sound the same.

In college theory I was taught to count 12/8 like this...123 223 323 423

Whereas 4/4 with eighth note triplets is counted 1 trip let 2 trip let etc.



IMG_20250806_131244__01__01.jpg
 
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tangent..

I have noticed in the last 10 years or more that no other musician says or uses 12/8. If it's a slow blues or slow triplet feel they ALWAYS, and I mean almost ALWAYS say 6/8. It doesn't really bother me, but I know it's not exactly correct..
 
Matched Gripper said:
Look at my last sentence. Is that not what I said previously?
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Not quite - you said 12 eighth note triplets *in a bar of 4/4*. It's true in 4/4 but not 12/8.

In 12/8, as lots of others have pointed out, they are not triplets. It may be easier to think of them that way or even count them that way, but in music theory they are not triplets.

It seems to me, part of the confusion is that many people try to think of a time signature as simply a fraction. It looks like one, but there are rules in music theory that don't apply to just any old fraction. The "denominator" has a certain function and that is always related to common time. We can't choose just any number for the denominator, which is why you never see a measure of 5/5 or 17/17 or 23/13.
 
mydadisjr said:
But in college theory I was taught to count 12/8 like this...123 223 323 423

Whereas 4/4 with eighth note triplets is counted 1 trip let 2 trip let etc.



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They’re being consistent with some other idea that isn’t always going to make the most sense for players.

I count them both the same, 1&a 2&a. They are the exact same thing, in different meter environments.
 
s1212z said:
Meanwhile, who needs sheet music? I believe Gamelan barely has any written notation.

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It’s not even about written notation, it’s about how players discuss rhythm, and styles. It’s informed by notation even there’s no actual reading happening. Gamelan musicians are going to have their own terms to talk about what they do.
 
bigbonzo said:
1 & ah 2 & ah...etc is an eighth and two sixteenth notes, NOT triplets.
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If we were not talking about a compound meter I'd agree with you.

I was taught not to be too dogmatic about the exact syllables used, anyway. If we are vocalizing the same figure, it wouldn't matter too much if we said 1 & a 2 & a, or 1 2 3 2 2 3, or heaven forbid, even the technically incorrect 1 trip let 2 trip let. At least, that's the mindset of those I studied with.

Understanding theory is good, but ultimately what matters is that we can communicate ideas, IMO. I don't teach and haven't had a theory class in ages, so take this as nothing more than me musing.
 
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toddbishop said:
It’s not even about written notation, it’s about how players discuss rhythm, and styles. It’s informed by notation even there’s no actual reading happening. Gamelan musicians are going to have their own terms to talk about what they do.
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100% agreed, notation is a means to an end and why I can't get too hung up on what 12/8 is. There many many ways to express the same technical or many ways to interpret the same exact piece of music or alternatively, or many other methods of composition that don't use traditional western notation to make music or can be completely experimental.
 
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