George Way sold to DW

[s1212z]

If you're reading this Ronn, do you have any tally of how many of those famous 6 1/2 x 13 titanium you sold ?

Mine sounded good, especially with Stanbridge hoops. But man, I'm just a Ludwig snare guy at heart

The titanium Ludwig-Dunnett, anyone play one? Looks amazing

https://reverb.com/item/90317585-ludwig-the-chief-2006-titanium-limiited-edition-mint?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=90317585

 

[groovemastergreg]

Ronn, I doubt you recall me. As I posted earlier, I have had nothing but good experience from you in purchasing a kit from you 20 years ago this year. I'm also a friend of Paul's who was (now retired) a Texas Assistant District Attorney and we spoke on the phone a few times maybe 15 years ago. I lived in Houston, I know you're also friends with Mike Henry there, then moved near Austin 20 years ago.

Good to see you make an appearance. You, I guess, are a controversial forumite. I have been very controversial in other aspects of my life, so I don't judge by that. Hope you're doing well...there is more to live than work, I have discovered post retirement, and I just wish I'd have been a trust funder like so many Houston musicians I know from oil and gas families because I would have been living my whole life drumming. I'm pleased with how I spent my working life, and actually enjoyed it, but not as much as playing drums. I also bought your Orange Sparkle Tempus kit in 24/12/14 and a set of drum bags that the camera bag people made a bit too tight for a bop kit. Those are great bags and I use them for many purposes. It's too bad Rock Steady didn't do some learning on drum dimensions and make a case to fit drums with hardware and spurs. As it is, the 12" fits a 10 perfectly, the 14 fits any number of drums, and the 18 fits a 16" x 14" floor with a gauger rim on it.

I hope Mr. Mason is doing so well that he just can't even find time to sleep! And to you as well!

One thing I do wish is that we had the archives of Drumsmith and DCI available online. Man, there was so much history and useful information there. Maybe one day you can start a band that plays the theme song to Green Acres. That's my theme song now.

 

[Mcjnic]

dadooronnronn

 

[Rich K.]

Ronn, I doubt you recall me. As I posted earlier, I have had nothing but good experience from you in purchasing a kit from you 20 years ago this year. I'm also a friend of Paul's who was (now retired) a Texas Assistant District Attorney and we spoke on the phone a few times maybe 15 years ago. I lived in Houston, I know you're also friends with Mike Henry there, then moved near Austin 20 years ago.

Good to see you make an appearance. You, I guess, are a controversial forumite. I have been very controversial in other aspects of my life, so I don't judge by that. Hope you're doing well...there is more to live than work, I have discovered post retirement, and I just wish I'd have been a trust funder like so many Houston musicians I know from oil and gas families because I would have been living my whole life drumming. I'm pleased with how I spent my working life, and actually enjoyed it, but not as much as playing drums. I also bought your Orange Sparkle Tempus kit in 24/12/14 and a set of drum bags that the camera bag people made a bit too tight for a bop kit. Those are great bags and I use them for many purposes. It's too bad Rock Steady didn't do some learning on drum dimensions and make a case to fit drums with hardware and spurs. As it is, the 12" fits a 10 perfectly, the 14 fits any number of drums, and the 18 fits a 16" x 14" floor with a gauger rim on it.

I hope Mr. Mason is doing so well that he just can't even find time to sleep! And to you as well!

One thing I do wish is that we had the archives of Drumsmith and DCI available online. Man, there was so much history and useful information there. Maybe one day you can start a band that plays the theme song to Green Acres. That's my theme song now.

Get a room

 

[K.O.]

The biggest difference is that the license can be pulled. The Gretsch family still has final decision-making, and if the license-holders aren't producing things the way they want, they can revoke the license.

Not to mention they (Gretsch family) surely get a piece of the action. Sell the company and you get a one time payout. License the rights and you can have an perpetual stream of income. Between the drums and guitars I bet they do quite well without having to be involved in the day to day operations of either.

 

[bellbrass]

Not to mention they (Gretsch family) surely get a piece of the action. Sell the company and you get a one time payout. License the rights and you can have an perpetual stream of income. Between the drums and guitars I bet they do quite well without having to be involved in the day to day operations of either.

I'd bet the Gretsch family gets less than one might think with an agreement like they have with DW or Roland. The bulk of the costs are passed to the licensee, including raw materials, labor for assembly, marketing, advertising, and all of the associated bookkeeping and accounting. Most of the profit goes to the licensee, as it should. The holder of the license/trademark usually only gets a percent or two, depending on the agreement, of course. Business arrangements like this usually exist only to give license holders veto power to protect the brand's reputation.

 

[groovemastergreg]

I'd bet the Gretsch family gets less than one might think with an agreement like they have with DW or Roland. The bulk of the costs are passed to the licensee, including raw materials, labor for assembly, marketing, advertising, and all of the associated bookkeeping and accounting. Most of the profit goes to the licensee, as it should. The holder of the license/trademark usually only gets a percent or two, depending on the agreement, of course. Business arrangements like this usually exist only to give license holders veto power to protect the brand's reputation.

You can't know what the arrangement is until you read the contract, which are sometimes covered by NDAs (Non Disclosure Agreements). Certainly, most of the profit goes to the licensee, but the Licensor is licensing their reputation, good will, etc, and I suspect it is more than a percent or two. I'm not in the drum or entertainment industry, so I don't know what the usual licensing agreements are in terms of percentages and such. What I do know is that speculation can't compete with reading the contract.

But I suspect it is a profitable relationship the Gretsch family has with drums and guitars. Is it Fender making Gretsch guitars now? I'm too lazy and not interested enough to goggle.

 

[bellbrass]

You can't know what the arrangement is until you read the contract, which are sometimes covered by NDAs (Non Disclosure Agreements). Certainly, most of the profit goes to the licensee, but the Licensor is licensing their reputation, good will, etc, and I suspect it is more than a percent or two. I'm not in the drum or entertainment industry, so I don't know what the usual licensing agreements are in terms of percentages and such. What I do know is that speculation can't compete with reading the contract.

But I suspect it is a profitable relationship the Gretsch family has with drums and guitars. Is it Fender making Gretsch guitars now? I'm too lazy and not interested enough to goggle.

I agree it might be more than 1-2%, but I'd bet it's not more than 3-5%, tops. Most licensees wouldn't agree to 5% off the top just for manufacturing & distribution rights. But who knows for sure. Besides, the Gretsch family still owns and operates the facility in Ridgeland, so they keep all of that from what's made there. The DW/Roland deal would apply mostly to the Asian-made drums & hardware. I bet John Christopher could lend some valuable insight. I saw contracts for licensing & distribution in my industry, and it was usually 2-5% of the net profit paid directly to the Licensor/Family Company. You'd be surprised at how much 2% of the net profits from the sale of a popular product can be. Back in the 80s, a popular flavor was added to a major soft drink line. The "inventor" of the flavor retained proprietary rights to the recipe, and received 1.5% of profits from the sales of all drinks that used his recipe - that applies to any size can or bottle, as well as fountain mix / dispensed sales, domestic or overseas. It took him about a year before he was a millionaire. He had his own company set up to manage his license, so factor that in as well.

 

[groovemastergreg]

Agree as well.

 

[bpaluzzi]

I agree it might be more than 1-2%, but I'd bet it's not more than 3-5%, tops. Most licensees wouldn't agree to 5% off the top just for manufacturing & distribution rights. But who knows for sure. Besides, the Gretsch family still owns and operates the facility in Ridgeland, so they keep all of that from what's made there. The DW/Roland deal would apply mostly to the Asian-made drums & hardware. I bet John Christopher could lend some valuable insight. I saw contracts for licensing & distribution in my industry, and it was usually 2-5% of the net profit paid directly to the Licensor/Family Company. You'd be surprised at how much 2% of the net profits from the sale of a popular product can be. Back in the 80s, a popular flavor was added to a major soft drink line. The "inventor" of the flavor retained proprietary rights to the recipe, and received 1.5% of profits from the sales of all drinks that used his recipe - that applies to any size can or bottle, as well as fountain mix / dispensed sales, domestic or overseas. It took him about a year before he was a millionaire. He had his own company set up to manage his license, so factor that in as well.

DW didn’t have the import rights. Those were with Hal Leonard, which AFAIK has not changed.

 

[bellbrass]

DW didn’t have the import rights. Those were with Hal Leonard, which AFAIK has not changed.

Ahh that's right; interesting. With musical instruments, everything seems to be centered around distribution networks.

 

[K.O.]

I agree it might be more than 1-2%, but I'd bet it's not more than 3-5%, tops. Most licensees wouldn't agree to 5% off the top just for manufacturing & distribution rights. But who knows for sure. Besides, the Gretsch family still owns and operates the facility in Ridgeland, so they keep all of that from what's made there. The DW/Roland deal would apply mostly to the Asian-made drums & hardware. I bet John Christopher could lend some valuable insight. I saw contracts for licensing & distribution in my industry, and it was usually 2-5% of the net profit paid directly to the Licensor/Family Company. You'd be surprised at how much 2% of the net profits from the sale of a popular product can be. Back in the 80s, a popular flavor was added to a major soft drink line. The "inventor" of the flavor retained proprietary rights to the recipe, and received 1.5% of profits from the sales of all drinks that used his recipe - that applies to any size can or bottle, as well as fountain mix / dispensed sales, domestic or overseas. It took him about a year before he was a millionaire. He had his own company set up to manage his license, so factor that in as well.

I don't thnk that's quite correct. The Gretsch family might still own the physical plant in South Carolina but I'm pretty sure the licensee actually operates it. I recall reading somewhere that the staff were considered to be DW employees and that's who their paychecks came from. One would assume the same now applies to GEWA. At this past Chicago Drum show the new Gretsch stuff was all in the GEWA booth.

Hard to know what the financial arrangements of the licensing deal might be but 25 years on (for drums, not sure about the guitar end of it) it appears to be lucrative enough that they choose to retain the company and do business in this fashion rather than sell it outright. Perhaps future generations might be inclined to sell, but Fred III was crushed when his Uncle Fred sold the company to Baldwin in 1967. It took him until 1984 to get it back (largely thanks to Baldwin and the Charlie Roy depressing the value of the company to the point where it was affordable). It would seem the family will retain it at least as long as Fred's still around. Even after the family regained ownership the company operated as a pretty small niche type operation, almost a custom boutique builder, until Gretsch signed that original licensing deal with Kaman. That is what really put Gretsch back on track as a major brand.

 

[Mcjnic]

 

[bobsyouruncle]

They made enough for a couple new custom suits ... complete with bowtie ... so, pretty good arrangement.
Future's so bright, he gotta wear shades ... uh huh ... and he didn't study nuclear science.


View attachment 735291

Sheeeeet. You know Dinah be running things

 

[Patrick]

Apart from a few one offs, I am done manufacturing drum kits. Snare drums only. I have no intention of winding down, but I really do want to spend more time on my beautiful little farm and enjoying life.

Ronn, I doubt you recall me. As I posted earlier, I have had nothing but good experience from you in purchasing a kit from you 20 years ago this year. I'm also a friend of Paul's who was (now retired) a Texas Assistant District Attorney and we spoke on the phone a few times maybe 15 years ago. I lived in Houston, I know you're also friends with Mike Henry there, then moved near Austin 20 years ago.

Good to see you make an appearance. You, I guess, are a controversial forumite. I have been very controversial in other aspects of my life, so I don't judge by that. Hope you're doing well...there is more to live than work, I have discovered post retirement, and I just wish I'd have been a trust funder like so many Houston musicians I know from oil and gas families because I would have been living my whole life drumming. I'm pleased with how I spent my working life, and actually enjoyed it, but not as much as playing drums. I also bought your Orange Sparkle Tempus kit in 24/12/14 and a set of drum bags that the camera bag people made a bit too tight for a bop kit. Those are great bags and I use them for many purposes. It's too bad Rock Steady didn't do some learning on drum dimensions and make a case to fit drums with hardware and spurs. As it is, the 12" fits a 10 perfectly, the 14 fits any number of drums, and the 18 fits a 16" x 14" floor with a gauger rim on it.

I hope Mr. Mason is doing so well that he just can't even find time to sleep! And to you as well!

One thing I do wish is that we had the archives of Drumsmith and DCI available online. Man, there was so much history and useful information there. Maybe one day you can start a band that plays the theme song to Green Acres. That's my theme song now.

 

[drums1225]

I miss Rob. He wasn't all bad. I got to know him reasonably well. He had a soft spot for animals. In hind sight we probably shared a few undiagnosed afflictions.

Same here. I was sad to hear of Rob's passing.

For some reason, he never turned his ire on me in RMMP, which few can say. I don't know why, but he was always cool to me, even when I called him out on some bad online behavior and anonymous trolling of others.

Rob and I actually became friends and hung in person a few times; first at NAMM in 2000, and again in 2005 when he visited NYC with a student of his from PHX. I spent the whole day with them, showing them around to the drum shops (none of which still exist). That evening, he invited me and my then girlfriend/now wife to an "avant garde" jazz gig at The Stone gallery (curated by John Zorn) where his longtime friend Tony Malaby was playing.

Even after RMMP kind of fizzled out in the late 00's, we kept in touch, He sent me a few CDs that he played on, one with Bob Ravenscroft and another was a solo drums CD. He really was a monster jazz player. From time to time he would reach out and send me pics of the Fender Jazz basses he started building/modding/restoring.

In person, Rob was largely unlike his online persona. He was lighthearted and funny, and yes, sarcastic and very opinionated, but a good hang. RIP, Rob.

 

[Patrick]

Ronn, I doubt you recall me. As I posted earlier, I have had nothing but good experience from you in purchasing a kit from you 20 years ago this year. I'm also a friend of Paul's who was (now retired) a Texas Assistant District Attorney and we spoke on the phone a few times maybe 15 years ago. I lived in Houston, I know you're also friends with Mike Henry there, then moved near Austin 20 years ago.

Good to see you make an appearance. You, I guess, are a controversial forumite. I have been very controversial in other aspects of my life, so I don't judge by that. Hope you're doing well...there is more to live than work, I have discovered post retirement, and I just wish I'd have been a trust funder like so many Houston musicians I know from oil and gas families because I would have been living my whole life drumming. I'm pleased with how I spent my working life, and actually enjoyed it, but not as much as playing drums. I also bought your Orange Sparkle Tempus kit in 24/12/14 and a set of drum bags that the camera bag people made a bit too tight for a bop kit. Those are great bags and I use them for many purposes. It's too bad Rock Steady didn't do some learning on drum dimensions and make a case to fit drums with hardware and spurs. As it is, the 12" fits a 10 perfectly, the 14 fits any number of drums, and the 18 fits a 16" x 14" floor with a gauger rim on it.

I hope Mr. Mason is doing so well that he just can't even find time to sleep! And to you as well!

One thing I do wish is that we had the archives of Drumsmith and DCI available online. Man, there was so much history and useful information there. Maybe one day you can start a band that plays the theme song to Green Acres. That's my theme song now.

 

[Patrick]

Sorry, that didn't work. Glad to see George Way's remarkable history in modern drum assembly getting a foothold into the future. I agree wholeheartedly with Groovemaster that it would be great to be able to search Drumsmith again. There was a ton of great stuff, lots of knowledge, history and, of course, opinions.

 

[fenrir]

The titanium Ludwig-Dunnett, anyone play one? Looks amazing

https://reverb.com/item/90317585-ludwig-the-chief-2006-titanium-limiited-edition-mint?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=90317585

I had one.
Sold it to a guy in Norway and it was 'lost'.
Had to refund the buyer and the drum never turned up, or so he told me.

 

[Ronn Dunnett]

I met Ron Dunnett, in Musikmess, Germany! I was in the MING DRUM stand, because I was endorssed by this brand! Mr Dunnett was here for meet us!! I was very happy to see him! He invited me to visit the DUNNETT stand for trying the Titanium drumset! Ron was the most gently and kindest personn i met in the Musikmess show!! Thank you again Mr Dunnett, It was a great pleasure!

Great meeting you too!