Is this Zildjian fake?

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Just bought this inexpensive 2nd hand small bell cymbal, mostly out of curiosity, even that I suspected it being fake.

What made me suspicious:
-The logos look good, but feel bit thick under finger
-No stamp
-No logo on underside
-Exact size is 9,6"

But on the other hand the bronze it looks like western B20 and lathing is very Zildjian-like.
If it's been cut from a bigger crash it's cut REALLY well. The edge is super smooth.
Also, another weird detail is that it's totally flat apart the bell. It doesn't curve downwards at all.

Has anyone seen just a plain "bell" in Z catalogue? I haven't.


One off for an endorser?
Feels weird that someone would do so fine logos, unless it's just for own use and they want the all logos in the kit match.


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paulwells73 said:
I know Zildjian to be EXTREMELY protective about never letting a cymbal out of the factory without a stamp.
Click to expand...

That's probably very true today. But in July 1995 when the Zildjian "Family Vault" cymbals
were "rediscovered" Armand allowed/gifted a number of 20" 1940's A's to leave without stamps. I'm aware of at
least 4 of them and there were probably more given out to key Z. employees at that time. Even Ringo
was presented with a set of of them (20, crash, hi hats)....see photo below. More of these were brought out and
auctioned off as part of the 2010 Memphis Drum Shop Cymbal Summit. I don't know if those were stamped or not.
The 1940's Vault cymbals being distributed in 2021 and 2023 were stamped using a leftover 1960's stamp.
 

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  • Ringos old 30's or 40's As from Zildjian John DeCristopher - found in 1995.jpg
    Ringos old 30's or 40's As from Zildjian John DeCristopher - found in 1995.jpg
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FLratrodder said:
If it is a fake, someone went through a lot of effort to do a clean job cutting it down, and screen printing new logos.
Click to expand...

It's well done job, looks good. But it feels thicker than screen printed logos usually feel. But it's too clean to be done with decals and spray paint. Bit of a mystery.
 
Hmmm… that’s an odd duck! They look pad printed, pre - ®️ and it appears to have the A Custom square hammering. Logos are in very good shape, the “Bell” even looks pad printed. Though the bell itself doesn’t look like it was ever played. Square rotary hammering appears in the late 1980s… don’t really know what the story behind these would be. The 8”, 10” and 12” EFX cymbals (extra thick splashes) were around during that era, but that’s not one of those. Not having a stamp wouldn’t be shocking to me on a prototype. Would be a lot of work for a phony…
 
ThomasL said:
The flat flange is really strange. Which larger cymbal has no curvature whatsoever just outside the bridge?
Click to expand...
Unless someone can answer this it's hard to imagine it's cut out of a larger cymbal. The ink makes me lean towards an interesting and convincing fake, but the appearance alone being so Zildjian-like, were it a fake it would just raise more questions than it answers..
 
mattr said:
Hmmm… that’s an odd duck! They look pad printed, pre - ®️ and it appears to have the A Custom square hammering. Logos are in very good shape, the “Bell” even looks pad printed. Though the bell itself doesn’t look like it was ever played. Square rotary hammering appears in the late 1980s… don’t really know what the story behind these would be. The 8”, 10” and 12” EFX cymbals (extra thick splashes) were around during that era, but that’s not one of those. Not having a stamp wouldn’t be shocking to me on a prototype. Would be a lot of work for a phony…
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention EFX's. I actually had one with me on yesterday's gig, maybe for the first time actually and I bought this bell on the same trip.
Yeah, good eye, looks like rotary hammering to me too. Has Sabian used that kind of hammering?
 
Let me approach this from a different angle: if you were going to counterfeit a cymbal, why would you bother with a splash? The return on investment would be extremely low, especially if you were doing it as nice as this looks. I'd contact someone at Zildijan and see what they can tell you.
 
paulwells73 said:
I know Zildjian to be EXTREMELY protective about never letting a cymbal out of the factory without a stamp.
Click to expand...
Tama CW said:
That's probably very true today. But in July 1995 when the Zildjian "Family Vault" cymbals
were "rediscovered" Armand allowed/gifted a number of 20" 1940's A's to leave without stamps. I'm aware of at
least 4 of them and there were probably more given out to key Z. employees at that time. Even Ringo
was presented with a set of of them (20, crash, hi hats)....see photo below. More of these were brought out and
auctioned off as part of the 2010 Memphis Drum Shop Cymbal Summit. I don't know if those were stamped or not.
The 1940's Vault cymbals being distributed in 2021 and 2023 were stamped using a leftover 1960's stamp.
Click to expand...
Both of these comments are true. The cymbals we gave Ringo in 1995 were unstamped (no trademark). We had literally just discovered them in a metal cabinet in the factory shortly before I presented them to him in July of 1995. I can't recall if the ones I gave Charlie Watts in Jan 1997 were trademarked - most likely they were by then.

As @paulwells73 said, since that time (30 years ago) nothing leaves the factory without a trademark. So this is a mystery.

It could be a real Zildjian cymbal cut down above where the trademark was, with a counterfeit logo. I would think it's pretty easy for someone to make a counterfeit logo at home.
 
Counterfeit logo, I could see. The flat flange is odd, though. It looks perfectly flat, which I'd think would be extremely difficult without the proper tools/machinery and know-how. The perfect edge points to someone with a lathe.

That all seems like a lot to go through to make a one-off counterfeit from a larger cymbal.
 
Kinda reminds me of Dream’s recycling program, you could definitely get a cheap bell with a Zildjian lathe, exchange the logos, sell for a little more.

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s1212z said:
Kinda reminds me of Dream’s recycling program, you could definitely get a cheap bell with a Zildjian lathe, exchange the logos, sell for a little more.

View attachment 744719
Click to expand...

Don't know if the guy, who I bought it from, had made it. It cost 30$, so he definitely didn't earn any extra, if it was his doings. And it had been listed 3 weeks ago.
 
I agree that it isn't worth faking a splash or efx cymbal.
I had a splash professionally cut down to a smaller size. I can't remember if the size wasn't available direct from zildjian. It certainly wasn't to repair damage and there was no attempt to rebrand the cymbal. I still have it and if I sold it or passed it on I would reveal it was cut down from a slightly larger original.
 
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