Need some opinions, black panther over citrus mod.

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xtchc1978

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Found a citrus mod covered in black panther, b/o badge, clear interior, should I remove the black panther considering the low value of black panther vs citrus mod or leave it? Black panther is in good shape. You can see the faint citrus mod poking out right at the end seams of the wrap on every drum. A small area of the panther wrap was removed under the mount on the 12''. I love the rarity of it the way it is, but probably looking to sell so value is a big consideration. I will post a pic later.
 
If it were me and looking to sell it, I would probably leave it as-is and let the buyer decide what to do. I would take pictures of every edge/ seam so they can see it is legit potentially. But, you don't know for sure it is in good shape unless you remove it.

If they mine I would keep them and the wrap would have already been off.
 
Did you get a whole set , or just one drum? I would suggest that the take off of the black panther wrap would be best done by someone like Jack Lawton.
 
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Yeah I have a whole set, was worried that maybe one or two were wrapped, mismatched etc, but they are all citrus mod.
 
Osahead2 said:
Yeah I have a whole set, was worried that maybe one or two were wrapped, mismatched etc, but they are all citrus mod.
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You must post pictures!
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I know, there are not many examples of panther over citrus mod, be posting in a few hours. It's going to be hard to pick out the faint colors on the edges but the area under the mount is very obvious.
 
In the process of cleaning them up, chrome is great just a bit dirty, bearing edges are nice should come out awesome. I noticed some older threads mentioning peeling back the panther, you don't need to peel anything back, you can see the finish in the scarf joint and all along the edge. PO removed the finish under the mount on the 12, the "scratch" showing the finish is on the bottom of the bass drum.

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Hard to say what the best course of action would be.

Reminds me of the Beatles "Butcher" cover. Time was that everyone was peeling off the pasted on cover to reveal the original cover underneath. Many people didn't do that good of a job of it. Now the unmolested pasted over covers are perhaps rarer than the peeled versions and from what I've read worth more if left alone ( but not as much as the very rare covers that never got pasted over in the first place).

Either way you apparently have won the Black Panther lottery. The question is whether it's worth more as having the potential of being unwrapped or as a peeled Citrus mod set? I'm thinking that at some point, like that Beatles cover, it will be the former.
 
K.O. said:
Hard to say what the best course of action would be.

Reminds me of the Beatles "Butcher" cover. Time was that everyone was peeling off the pasted on cover to reveal the original cover underneath. Many people didn't do that good of a job of it. Now the unmolested pasted over covers are perhaps rarer than the peeled versions and from what I've read worth more if left alone ( but not as much as the very rare covers that never got pasted over in the first place).

Either way you apparently have won the Black Panther lottery. The question is whether it's worth more as having the potential of being unwrapped or as a peeled Citrus mod set? I'm thinking that at some point, like that Beatles cover, it will be the former.
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Yeah, I very much agree. I am not going to make any decisions overnight. I think it would be hard for folks to deny what it is, perhaps I will have to test the market as it is.
 
xtchc1978, you said "you can see the finish in the scarf joint and all along the edge"... so to me IMO that tells me that these shells are from a few years before the b/o badges came out in late 1969'ish.

Q: Can these shells be from as early as 1967 to 1968'ish when Ludwig was making shells and wraps together like that???
 
It's possible as anything is possible with Ludwig. I think citrus mod and black panther both appeared in mid to late 1968. It is also my belief that Ludwig would wrap shells, put them on a shelf and finish them in the many stages it took to complete a set. Because citrus mod and black panther never made it to a catalog until 1970 I think citrus was pretty much doomed from the start. Black seems to have been much more popular in the late 60's/early 70's and I think with slow sales of citrus Ludwig knew they needed to get rid of the wrapped shells they were sitting on. I believe that this was done in mid 1970 as the black panther is a pretty thin wrap and gave Ludwig a good option to move shells already made.

Are the shells date stamped? If this were my set I would absolutely restore them to the citrus mod. That color is pretty rare and would be super cool to own. I would probably have a pro take care of the job like Jack Lawton though. I will be interested to see how this turns out. Nice find!
 
Eh, I have a badly faded undated silver sparkle 702xxx serial 20" that's clear interior, wrap lapped into the shell, and gullwing spurs barely forward of halfway. Mix-and-match different-era construction oddness is closer to the rule than the exception.

Cool kit. I'd get it professionally de-wrapped.

There are drums that get converted the world is gonna run out of (how many RB 18" floors you seen recently?), but I easily see 100 Panther kits for every Citrus.
 
I'd be inclined to leave the BP wrap on. Panther over Citrus has gotta be rarer than just Citrus. It's also an interesting Ludwig oddity, one I've often seen talked about here and elsewhere but rarely actually seen (everyone hopes their BP wrapped kit turns out to be hiding CM but it's rarely the case)
 
CaptainCrunch said:
Eh, I have a badly faded undated silver sparkle 702xxx serial 20" that's clear interior, wrap lapped into the shell, and gullwing spurs barely forward of halfway. Mix-and-match different-era construction oddness is closer to the rule than the exception.

Cool kit. I'd get it professionally de-wrapped.

There are drums that get converted the world is gonna run out of (how many RB 18" floors you seen recently?), but I easily see 100 Panther kits for every Citrus.
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I hear you, but on the other hand this kit is not 1 out of 100 Panther kits you see for sale unless one was to deny that it is a Panther over Citrus, not a Panther that "could be" Citrus or simply a Black Panther. May be one of the last unwrapped ones left, who knows. What does that mean value wise, rare doesn't always mean valuable so I guess it would depend on the market.
 
K.O. said:
Hard to say what the best course of action would be.

Reminds me of the Beatles "Butcher" cover. Time was that everyone was peeling off the pasted on cover to reveal the original cover underneath. Many people didn't do that good of a job of it. Now the unmolested pasted over covers are perhaps rarer than the peeled versions and from what I've read worth more if left alone ( but not as much as the very rare covers that never got pasted over in the first place).

Either way you apparently have won the Black Panther lottery. The question is whether it's worth more as having the potential of being unwrapped or as a peeled Citrus mod set? I'm thinking that at some point, like that Beatles cover, it will be the former.
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Or it's like vintage Star War toys still sealed in the box. :)

I'm sorta with the leave it crowd if selling in the short term. It's a huge project to clean up the Black Panther. Better to sell a potential project than an actual project. The whole attractiveness of the Black Panther on top is the prospect of *new*, unfaded Citrus Mod underneath. One exposed, buyers see a clock ticking.

In short, if unsure, you should leave them as is. If you love CM, start peeling!

As for the scarf joint and age of the shells, I think we need a closer look. The bottom of the floor tom clearly shows "wrap on wrap" definitely the later style of putting wrap on.

-Ryan
 
Seems to me a citrus mod finished kit would be worth much more than a panther. If I were mine whether selling or keeping I'd have the wrap removed. Just my two cents
 
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