Trans stamp 14" hats - factory matched pair or not?

[Tama CW]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/187403050532

Seller Mad Scientist Drums listing these as a factory matched pair. Opinions?

1. Trans stamp type 1 (1946-1949) on the heavier bottom cymbal. Trans 3 on the lighter top.
I can see an overlap of type 1/2's or 3/4's often looking like factory pairs. But can't ever recall a type 1/3 pairing showing all the good signs.

2. Patina looks very different on each of them. One (ie heavier type 1 bottom) is generally much brighter the other darker streakier patina.
Who cleans the bottom cymbal and not the grungier top?

3. 88 gm weight spread is pushing it for the period where hi hat pairs were usually only 0-50 gm apart. These are 15% apart (548/636).

4. Both are inked as MEDIUMS which is a plus for a "pair." Though Most factory pairs from this period with "MEDIUM" inking remaining, would likely
also have "TOP" or "BOTTOM" hi hat ink, or both still remaining.

5. Edge wear patterns seem inconclusive with one cymbal being much lighter in patina than the other makes comparing wear patterns harder by these photos.

6. The lighter, more toned cymbal seems to have an "original" price of $26.XX under the bell which seems reasonable for early 1950's. Nothing written under the other one.

 

[Cliff DeArment]

I'd say not "matched" from the factory. But it was common to go to a store and pick the ones you like as a pair and say they "match".

 

[Tama CW]

I'd say not "matched" from the factory. But it was common to go to a store and pick the ones you like as a pair and say they "match".

Do you think they are likely a "day 2" pairing that have been together as hats since the 1950's ?

 

[Cliff DeArment]

Do you think they are likely a "day 2" pairing that have been together as hats since the 1950's ?

Possible. No real way to know. The thing that sticks out is the patina. Who knows. The 50's guy might have cleaned one of them up because someone spit on it.

Could be the first owner said it was matched, or at least thinks it was. Or, Mad Scientist Drums is just making it up as he goes. Not sure why he would. It's not going to change the value. "Either way, it's a pair of hats. Want to buy it or not?", he says with a grin.

 

[hsosdrum]

When I bought brand-new 14" New Beats in 1984 the drum shop let me test all of the tops and bottoms together for all 4 pairs of brand-new New Beats they had in stock and I found a pairing that sounded perfect for me. After that the shop put the remaining 3 tops and bottoms together at random — any "factory pairing" was lost for all 4 pairs. I suspect this sort of thing was (and still is) very common. (P.S. I used those New Beats for over 37 years. My sister's now using them.)

 

[Cliff DeArment]

Ya know... We have pretty much zero evidence (as far as I know) of any set that came out of the factory marked as "Matched Pair". Were they even weighing them? Doubtful. No one has one of those bags that said match pair. Even if we did, it could have been farted around with in the store. Let's say, Avedis himself matches and bags them. Let's say I'm a smart drummer (HA! I've been a moron more than once), and I walk into the store. Those things aren't cheap. I'm going to open those bags, hear every cymbal in the store, bag or not, and pick a pair. The store doesn't care, and I don't care. They want to make the sale. Is that a "Matched Pair" from the factory? Maybe not. It was just a selling pitch from Zildjian. The pair I'm going to buy is a pair of cymbals that I think sound good.

 

[Cliff DeArment]

When I bought brand-new 14" New Beats in 1984 the drum shop let me test all of the tops and bottoms together for all 4 pairs of brand-new New Beats they had in stock and I found a pairing that sounded perfect for me. After that the shop put the remaining 3 tops and bottoms together at random — any "factory pairing" was lost for all 4 pairs. I suspect this sort of thing was (and still is) very common. (P.S. I used those New Beats for over 37 years. My sister's now using them.)

I did the very same thing looking for a set of New Beats in the 90's.

 

[Cliff DeArment]

Zildjian has always had selling pitches all the way back to the dark ages. This is great because _________! That's where all those names came from. It's just like the stores do it. Buy that one because.... Yeah, it costs more but.... Great! Cash or charge? We're even getting that stuff on Reverb/Ebay. Matched pair! Buy now! Nothing new.

 

[Tama CW]

Ya know... We have pretty much zero evidence (as far as I know) of any set that came out of the factory marked as "Matched Pair". Were they even weighing them? Doubtful. No one has one of those bags that said match pair. Even if we did, it could have been farted around with in the store. Let's say, Avedis himself matches and bags them. Let's say I'm a smart drummer (HA! I've been a moron more than once), and I walk into the store. Those things aren't cheap. I'm going to open those bags, hear every cymbal in the store, bag or not, and pick a pair. The store doesn't care, and I don't care. They want to make the sale. Is that a "Matched Pair" from the factory? Maybe not. It was just a selling pitch from Zildjian. The pair I'm going to buy is a pair of cymbals that I think sound good.

Well one way to get close to 100% probability is to buy a 1 owner pair purchased new. Were they "weighing" them? Well, in the 40's and 50's "someone" was certainly holding them in their hands and striking them. There are just too many original-looking pairs in the pre-New Beat era that were very close in weight. While no "matched pair" bags exist, there are hundreds/thousands of closely weighted vintage hi hat pairs that look like they've been together since day 1 or 2.

I have a pair of trans stamp type 2's at 687/669 gm that came with a 1 owner 1950 Radio King kit. A 16" trans type 2 also came with that kit. There are original owner photos showing them playing this kit when new with this cymbal set up. It's reasonable to that these cymbals were bought with the kit. And I have to think if they are stamped "TOP" and "BOTTOM" and are close in weight, the factory probably paired them.....or at worst, the Music Store on day 2 stamped them as "TOP" and "BOTTOM." I like the odds of the factory having done that....not the Music Store. Why would they even bother?

These 2 hats are in identical mint condition with nearly identical brilliance, hammering/lathing, patina and a total lack of edge flaws. Both cymbals sit dead flat...not common for any trans stamps. Even the trademark stamps are struck up about the same with the "MADE IN USA" line either very weak, or missing, and the "Z's" on both are not sharply impressed. Both are inked as "TOP HI-HAT" and "BOTTOM HI-HAT" ....with the font of TOP and BOTTOM smaller than the HI HAT font. One oddity is that they have dimensions of 13-15/16" (TOP-687) and 14-3/16" (BOTTOM-669). Interesting that the heavier and slightly smaller cymbal is the TOP. But it's also the slightly lower pitched one. The underside wear pattern of the bottom cymbal goes inward twice as far as the top cymbal....because the smaller top cymbal sat further inward on it and dragged out to the edge......exactly as expected. They sound best to me in the TOP over BOTTOM inked configuration (687/669). The "TOP" ink and part of the "HAT" ink has faded on that cymbal, but those letters are still visible as "silvery" ghost letters (4th photo).

While nothing is ever 100%, I would submit this pair is about as factory or day 2 matched as any early vintage pair out there....and certainly the cleanest original trans stamp pair I've ever owned. By the mid to later 50's hats were routinely only getting inked on one cymbal, making it easier to swap them around in later years. This TOP HI-HAT and BOTTOM HI-HAT inking seems to happen more often in the early trans stamp type 1/2 periods.

I'm usually fine with a pair that looks like they've been together when the stamps first came out. For 1950's and earlier, they changed stamps often enough to get a better handle on the era. With the 60's and 70's trademark stamps being used for approx 20 yrs each, it's a lot harder to nail those down unless you find a pair with both TOP and BOTTOM inking on them, and all the other characteristics agree. I also have a similar set of 13" trans 2 hats that came with my Icon Radio King kit. They're nearly as clean too. Unfortunately, only one has signs of ink: BOTTOM HI-HAT. No ink is left on the lighter top cymbal, assuming it ever had any, though it probably did. So there's no way I can be pretty sure they're a probable Factory or day 2 pair despite the close weights of 595/597, identical widths of 12-7/8", and being in nearly identical condition.

 

[Tama CW]

When I bought brand-new 14" New Beats in 1984 the drum shop let me test all of the tops and bottoms together for all 4 pairs of brand-new New Beats they had in stock and I found a pairing that sounded perfect for me. After that the shop put the remaining 3 tops and bottoms together at random — any "factory pairing" was lost for all 4 pairs. I suspect this sort of thing was (and still is) very common. (P.S. I used those New Beats for over 37 years. My sister's now using them.)

When I bought my pair of brand new 14" New Beats in the early 1970's, I think I just pulled a pair off the shelf, in a Zildjian bag. Or it could have been 2 bagged up singles in one larger bag. Don't really recall. I do recall the red/black New Beat sticker on one of the cymbals. I also know that I didn't test them before buying.....just accepted them as is......esp. since my previous pair were MIJ clunkers. Those NB's turned out fine (826/1163 g) as they are still the best pair of New Beats I've ever heard or played. A few other pairs have been very close though.