Unknown vintage cymbal stamp

[larold]

Can anyone ID this stamp? I think the cymbal is from the 1920s - 1030s. Thanks!

edit: it says “StaMbul” or “IstaMbul” (my emphasis), not “Istanbul,” but isn’t a Paiste Stambul.

 

[another_drummer]

Ah, the one Cymbalholic could not figure out. It is for sure a rare one.

 

[1988fxlr]

Theres enough there to assume it reads “made in italy.” Maybe try looking at all the different known ufip stencil stamps and see if you get a hit

 

[another_drummer]

There are other pictures of the stamp, seems to be made in Turkey, not Italy. At least according to the stamp.

 

[zenstat]

Theres enough there to assume it reads “made in italy.” Maybe try looking at all the different known ufip stencil stamps and see if you get a hit

A poor assumption I'm afraid. We have enough images to know it says MADE IN TURKEY and Genuine Turkish. Of course it would be another poor assumption to believe that these cymbals must be Turkish in origin. They could still be Italian. We just don't know enough yet.

Here are a few pictures I've got on file. 11" diam and 300g.

 

[zenstat]

A 14" unknown weight.

Below is an image posted on DFO but I don't think I've got a working URL to read the context of the post, only to get to the image.

https://www.drumforum.org/attachments/img_2738-copy-jpg.470592/

I do know that I downloaded it Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 11:39 AM but of course it could be older.

 

[zenstat]

I probably have more images and documentation in my files but they will take more searching because at one time I went through a reorganization of 500 directories trying to sort out the unknown or lesser known trademarks and cymbals.

I'm also pretty sure there is something written up in the wiki about this Stambul trademark being non Paiste but that's another searching task I'm not up to at the moment. If somebody else happens to know which page(s) in the wiki talk about his trademark please give us a url. And anybody who has other information is invited to add it to this thread.

Ah, the one Cymbalholic could not figure out. It is for sure a rare one.

I'm proud that we Cymbalholics were able to say that we don't have enough information rather than make yet another unfounded assumption on woefully inadequate evidence. But maybe that's just me.

 

[1988fxlr]

For some reason

I probably have more images and documentation in my files but they will take more searching because at one time I went through a reorganization of 500 directories trying to sort out the unknown or lesser known trademarks and cymbals.

I'm also pretty sure there is something written up in the wiki about this Stambul trademark being non Paiste but that's another searching task I'm not up to at the moment. If somebody else happens to know which page(s) in the wiki talk about his trademark please give us a url. And anybody who has other information is invited to add it to this thread.



I'm proud that we Cymbalholics were able to say that we don't have enough information rather than make yet another unfounded assumption on woefully inadequate evidence. But maybe that's just me.

guilty as charged. For some reason genuine turkish threw me off the scent of even considering turkey

 

[jptrickster]

It’s rich in Italian ancestry! Can’t recall any cymbal actually from Turkey with the word Stambul.

 

[zenstat]

I just found another url which shows a bit more

Old Turkish/Italian cymbals ID?

Hi everone, I have just bought these 2 old splashes. They sound really nice. Just trying identify the one that says Genuine Turkish? It's super thin. The other one I think was made in Italy as I understand?? Any info would be helpful. I got them pretty cheap, but any idea of both date and value...

www.drumforum.org

I wasn't around because I was very ill. You can safely ignore the contributions of JimmyStix and JDA in that older thread. We've moved on.

Super Constantinople is named as a UFIP brand but it doesn't appear on the stencil brand photo. This is from a photo of stencil brands in the office at the UFIP factory.

As part of a multi-year project I've assembled examples of almost every cymbal on the original photo plus a few which aren't there. Examples of a each trademark get put into a directory along with an annotated image showing where they are on the photo of stencil brands. Constantinople gets a mention in the two major texts covering Italian cymbals.

The references I've stored with that info [and my amendments]

Pinksterboer, The Cymbal Book p167:

"From 1950 up to the mid-sixties UFIP made and marketed a series of Super Constantinople cymbals for the French company Dolnet. Besides the name, also the logo of a half moon and three stars pointed in the direction of Turkey" [moon an 3 stars seen on 15-v-zil-stamp but that says V Zildjian not Super Constantinople]

The examples I've seen just have the one star.

Luciano, Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals p129

"...and in France like the Super Constantinople of Abraxis." [Except that Abraxis is meant to be a USA brand and Pinksterboer has Dolnet. I've got a few Abraxis examples]

"Towards the end of the 60s the cymbals Solid Line was created, originally called Super Constantinople, beat and lathed by hand."

There are older looking cymbals which say Constantinople and have a star and moon. The illegible bits below the star may say Super but we haven't seen any which are clear enough to know.

There is a later looking more legible Super Constantinople trademark.

 

[zenstat]

Reviewing my notes I came across this thread from May 2009, before Drumaholic was kicked off DFO. The original image is gone but you can guess it is that same Stambul trademark. A good example of people who are here to argue rather then enlighten.

Anybody recognize the cymbal manufacturer here?

And in case you're having trouble reading the upper portion of the trademark, it says: "Made in Turkey"

www.drumforum.org

 

[DrumBob]

All I can add is, many of the stencil cymbal brands were either made by UFIP or another Italian cymbal foundry like Tosco or Zanchi, or Paiste.

 

[Tama CW]

I just found another url which shows a bit more

Old Turkish/Italian cymbals ID?

Hi everone, I have just bought these 2 old splashes. They sound really nice. Just trying identify the one that says Genuine Turkish? It's super thin. The other one I think was made in Italy as I understand?? Any info would be helpful. I got them pretty cheap, but any idea of both date and value...

www.drumforum.org

I wasn't around because I was very ill. You can safely ignore the contributions of JimmyStix and JDA in that older thread. We've moved on.

I read that entire older thread. JDA noted that the cymbal shows "Genuine Turkish." He didn't say he agreed with that. In fact, later on in the thread he mentioned
it had been discussed at Cymbalholic before, though with no conclusive findings....."I think final word on that one was deemed inconclusive or close to unknown."

Apparently, that's still where we are today. I'd lean towards non-Turkish, possibly Italian/European.....but that's worth only 2c.
Bottom line is that if the cymbal sounds like an old K Constantinople, has nice tone and complexity, then it's really worth "something".

 

[zenstat]

All I can add is, many of the stencil cymbal brands were either made by UFIP or another Italian cymbal foundry like Tosco or Zanchi, or Paiste.

And yet there are a few cymbals which do seem to have been made in Turkey in the old days which aren't K Zildjian.

Zildji Kircor, K GUBUKIAN

Zildji Vram in The Cymbal Book

and for sale in modern times

even a sticker

and another unknown from Drumaholic which hasn't disappeared from his online photo store. I have it filed as ZiLCiAN atay. His post reads

It's this one: "Zilcian". Then "Atoy" or something similar. No Arabic script. Purportedly made in Istanbul, designated by "Ist." Definitely Turkish made and also looks very K-like. Just when you thought you've seen everything there is, and then comes something like this.

and linked to this photo

but all the rest of the info is lost.

ref: http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?p=464796#post464796

And then there is Andrinople which seems related to (used by?) Dave Tough

I'm reluctant to rule out Turkey as a source for those Stambul cymbals because I am at the stage of "the more you know, the more you know you don't know". And I haven't even started on the Eastern European unknowns.